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Forums :: Blog World :: Jason Lewis: It Is Time to Separate Doughty and Regehr
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Jason Lewis
Los Angeles Kings
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: 07.17.2013

Mar 15 @ 5:04 PM ET
Jason Lewis: It Is Time to Separate Doughty and Regehr
SimpleJack
Chicago Blackhawks
Location: Chicago , IL
Joined: 05.23.2013

Mar 15 @ 5:18 PM ET
So when healthy u guys are hoping for Doughty - Muzzin, Martinez - Greene, McNabb - Sekera ?? Thats pretty legit. I hear McNaab has really been impressive lately.
Shaundre93
Boston Bruins
Location: Standish, ME
Joined: 07.18.2013

Mar 15 @ 5:26 PM ET
Why'd Doughty Muzzin get split in the first place? Haven't they been like the best D pair in the league for a while now? (At least according to advanced stats). Seems odd. I never really understood why people liked Regehr even when he was solid, always seemed like an overpaid Adam Mcquaid.

How awesome would a B's Kings final be this year? If nothing else it would be great to tell the haters to suck it
Jason Lewis
Los Angeles Kings
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: 07.17.2013

Mar 15 @ 5:39 PM ET
So when healthy u guys are hoping for Doughty - Muzzin, Martinez - Greene, McNabb - Sekera ?? Thats pretty legit. I hear McNaab has really been impressive lately.
- SimpleJack


Those would be the best possible pairings in my opinion.
numbear
Calgary Flames
Location: vancouver, BC
Joined: 06.24.2011

Mar 15 @ 5:44 PM ET
Those would be the best possible pairings in my opinion.
- Jason_Lewis

ya.

Sutter can be too loyal to the old guys, as a gm that was his downfall in CGY.
CrownedKing
Los Angeles Kings
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Joined: 01.06.2015

Mar 15 @ 6:04 PM ET
I thought I was the only one sick of seeing that pairing. If the only way to have you passably be in the line up is to pair you with a top 5 defender in the league, you shouldn't be in. I know McNabb isn't super experienced and does make youthful errors, I'd make him and Sekera my 2nd pairing.
Doughty-Muzzin
Sekera-McNabb
Martinez-Greene

Martinez and Greene are proven to be their best as 3rd pairing guys, Sekera can easily be a 2nd pairing guy, and hopefully McNabb can keep up
Gretz2Kurri
Los Angeles Kings
Location: CA
Joined: 01.19.2014

Mar 16 @ 3:22 AM ET
You got to keep them separated......
RobitailleFAN20
Los Angeles Kings
Location: LA Kings fan since 1996. Favorite palyers Luc Robitaille & Rob Blake, CA
Joined: 06.22.2014

Mar 16 @ 9:24 AM ET
YES... Not much else to say really.
benjichronic
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Wheaton, IL
Joined: 09.22.2014

Mar 16 @ 12:43 PM ET
You got to keep them separated......
- Gretz2Kurri


heeeeeey don't pay no mind, you're under 18 you won't be doin any time...

I hope that was an offspring song reference or I'm gonna end up sound pretty silly lol
Gretz2Kurri
Los Angeles Kings
Location: CA
Joined: 01.19.2014

Mar 16 @ 4:26 PM ET
heeeeeey don't pay no mind, you're under 18 you won't be doin any time...

I hope that was an offspring song reference or I'm gonna end up sound pretty silly lol

- benjichronic



Yeah, I was going for that, couldn't resist.
dprice818
Los Angeles Kings
Location: CA
Joined: 08.16.2011

Mar 16 @ 10:10 PM ET
Why'd Doughty Muzzin get split in the first place? Haven't they been like the best D pair in the league for a while now? (At least according to advanced stats). Seems odd. I never really understood why people liked Regehr even when he was solid, always seemed like an overpaid Adam Mcquaid.

How awesome would a B's Kings final be this year? If nothing else it would be great to tell the haters to suck it

- Shaundre93

OK, let's do it!
Ersberg
Season Ticket Holder
Los Angeles Kings
Joined: 05.26.2009

Mar 17 @ 9:18 AM ET
It's nice we picked up the 2 points last night, but I hope we aren't running into another scoring drought.

dprice818
Los Angeles Kings
Location: CA
Joined: 08.16.2011

Mar 17 @ 11:44 PM ET
It's nice we picked up the 2 points last night, but I hope we aren't running into another scoring drought.
- Ersberg

I was thinking the same. Kinda typical just like the Flames over achieving, ducks finishing like a team that is not making the playoffs, blues being called the best team, hopefully Kings do their thing. They Looked stale last night, playing down to depleted coyotes team........that's kinda been Kings M.O. as well. A win against the he Ducks will be great..
GKG!!
ToughD
Joined: 08.19.2013

Mar 18 @ 1:32 AM ET
This is why you need to watch games and not rely solely on the advanced statistics.
1) Muzz/Doughty pairing has ALWAYS given up too many high quality scoring chances.
2) Muzz has mostly sucked and sucked royally this season, but his corsi is still great? Hmmm...eye test or corsi? Well, coach has publicly derided him and demoted him...eye test wins.
3) When Regehr got injured, for a good stretch of games we had the advanced staticians' wet dream defense: drew, muzz, mcnabb, greene, amart... Remember what happened? We lost like 8 straight games and gave up at least 1 power play goal per game.

Still don't get it?!?!? Then how bout....

4) Since Regehr has returned and been placed on the top pairing and the top pk unit, we have one of the best records in the NHL, and our GAA and PK% have been sparkling.

Admittedly, Regehr's limited puck moving/passing skills hurt the pairing's corsi (and it seems to be getting worse), and the aging vet is playing too many minutes, but he's our best option right now. Definitely better than dd/muzz.
dprice818
Los Angeles Kings
Location: CA
Joined: 08.16.2011

Mar 18 @ 12:59 PM ET
This is why you need to watch games and not rely solely on the advanced statistics.
1) Muzz/Doughty pairing has ALWAYS given up too many high quality scoring chances.
2) Muzz has mostly sucked and sucked royally this season, but his corsi is still great? Hmmm...eye test or corsi? Well, coach has publicly derided him and demoted him...eye test wins.
3) When Regehr got injured, for a good stretch of games we had the advanced staticians' wet dream defense: drew, muzz, mcnabb, greene, amart... Remember what happened? We lost like 8 straight games and gave up at least 1 power play goal per game.

Still don't get it?!?!? Then how bout....

4) Since Regehr has returned and been placed on the top pairing and the top pk unit, we have one of the best records in the NHL, and our GAA and PK% have been sparkling.

Admittedly, Regehr's limited puck moving/passing skills hurt the pairing's corsi (and it seems to be getting worse), and the aging vet is playing too many minutes, but he's our best option right now. Definitely better than dd/muzz.

- ToughD

Hmmm .........a bit of a chin scratcher
Jason Lewis
Los Angeles Kings
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: 07.17.2013

Mar 18 @ 2:37 PM ET
This is why you need to watch games and not rely solely on the advanced statistics.
1) Muzz/Doughty pairing has ALWAYS given up too many high quality scoring chances.
2) Muzz has mostly sucked and sucked royally this season, but his corsi is still great? Hmmm...eye test or corsi? Well, coach has publicly derided him and demoted him...eye test wins.
3) When Regehr got injured, for a good stretch of games we had the advanced staticians' wet dream defense: drew, muzz, mcnabb, greene, amart... Remember what happened? We lost like 8 straight games and gave up at least 1 power play goal per game.

Still don't get it?!?!? Then how bout....

4) Since Regehr has returned and been placed on the top pairing and the top pk unit, we have one of the best records in the NHL, and our GAA and PK% have been sparkling.

Admittedly, Regehr's limited puck moving/passing skills hurt the pairing's corsi (and it seems to be getting worse), and the aging vet is playing too many minutes, but he's our best option right now. Definitely better than dd/muzz.

- ToughD


Oi vey. Where do we start.

This is why you need to watch games


I have watched every single game this year. Every single one. I use stats to support theories and trends I see on the ice. Not vice versa. I have been following the team for 20+ years, writing about them for 3-4. I watch the games. Every year. Every game.

Muzz has mostly sucked and sucked royally this season,


On pace for 40 points, best possession numbers on the team, second highest average time on ice. Leads our blueline corps in powerplay goals, powerplay points. 4th in blocked shots, 5th in hits, tied for 2nd in game winning goals.

How on earth can you sit here and tell me that he has "Sucked and sucked royally this season."

Sorry but you are flat. out. wrong.


1) Muzz/Doughty pairing has ALWAYS given up too many high quality scoring chances.


We have these numbers are War on Ice my friend. When Muzzin is on the ice the Kings allow LESS high scoring chances. Likewise with Doughty.

Shooting rates for opposing teams when Muzzin is on the ice go as follows

down low: .826
Mid range/slot: .833
Point and beyond: .857

When Muzzin is NOT on the ice, here are the shot rates:

down low: .895
Mid range/slot: .896
Point and beyond: .887


So what you are saying is blatantly false, and the numbers prove that. Doughty and Muzzin give up less high scoring chances.

You want to do Regehr for comparison? Okay.


When Regehr is on the ice

down low: .879
Mid range/slot: 1.01
Point and beyond: .951

When Regehr is NOT on the ice, here are opposing team shot rates.

down low: .866
Mid range/slot: .86
Point and beyond: .845

Muzzin's numbers from mid range, and/or the slot, are VASTLY superior. 1.01 vs. .833.


Not enough info? Alright. Pure scoring chance numbers.

Jake Muzzin is 2nd on the team amongst regular defenseman in scoring chances against. He would lead the team if Sekera were not here. 23.0 over 60.

Regehr? Worst on the team amongst active defenseman with 24.9 over 60. Only Martinez is worse off.

Which brings me to the next point. The stretch of eight games in which you speak of has so little to do with Jake Muzzin.

You said we had "advanced staticians' wet dream defense"

Except the problem here is that Martinez is having an awful year. So is Greene. McBain was the extra player in that scenario and he is nearly as bad defensively as Regehr. McNabb has also had a season of high highs and low lows and was scratched in a large number of those games in favor of Jeff Schultz and McBain.

I went back and checked the box scores on the losing streak you are talking about.

The Kings started that terrible stretch on December 12th. Regehr was in the lineup during that time. They lost 3 in a row in Canada. Came home and won 3 of 4, and then went on to lost 5 of the next 6. Jeff Schultz dressed in the stretch of 5. As did McBain over McNabb. Muzzin and Doughty were not the problem. They were part of a larger TEAM problem. That stretch you are referencing was also Quick's worst stretch as a pro goaltender. He had 10 games under .900 save percentage. Again, Muzzin and Doughty paired up was not the problem.

Look, I get it, Muzzin can make glaring turnovers. This is known. But the good FAR outweighs the bad. Some of the numbers and points you bring up are 100% incorrect. Say eye test all you want. I've watched him for years. He makes fantastic outlets, and overall plays a very safe game which allows Doughty to do his thing. With an immobile and poor puck moving Regehr paired up with Doughty, DD cannot carry the puck as frequently without fear of being caught up ice or without a capable partner to back him up. The outlets aren't as fast, aren't as crisp, and that doesn't allow Doughty to jump into the play and capitalize on rushes. Again, it also limits his carry rate due to him having to play a more defensive posture to make up for 44.

If you are going to come at Muzzin you better come with a more convincing argument, because he has been very good this year and there are A LOT of things that help support that. I think the recognition that he makes bad turnovers is fairly well known, however he does way more than that to help this team be a winning team. You say eye test to help criticize him, I say eye test to help better understand the excellent little things that Muzzin brings to the table to make this team better.
hiway39
Season Ticket Holder
Los Angeles Kings
Location: San Francisco, CA
Joined: 03.01.2010

Mar 18 @ 3:02 PM ET

2) Muzz has mostly sucked and sucked royally this season, but his corsi is still great? Hmmm...eye test or corsi? Well, coach has publicly derided him and demoted him...eye test wins.

- ToughD


not sure you can applaud regehr's play and say he passes the eye test without a bong hit in between...
ToughD
Joined: 08.19.2013

Mar 18 @ 11:34 PM ET
1) don't believe every stat you see, good portion of it is based on real-time "interpretation", [edit] subject to human fallacies and the nationwide regehr biases that exist.
2a) not all shots are created equal. If you are facing the other teams top line, shots from a particular scoring area are "better" than a shot from the same area but from a checking line.
2b) we can get a better grip on the quality of the shots given up by looking at GA60: Here Muzz is worst on the team at 2.2, Regehr is tied for 2nd best on the team behind 3rd pairing McNabb. Perhaps Muzz is getting some cheap ones due to pk'ing...nope Regehr kills more. Maybe Muzz is getting some cheap ones due to bad line changes...nope Muzz is usually the guilty party and handing those to his mates. Confirms the eye test, this season Muzz's defense is (particularly) shoddy.
3) common sense (supported via eye test even better) should take precedence over stats. Coach is trying to win games (it's his job) so if he is criticizing a player and demoting him, it's most likely due to performance.What I usually see from a dd/muzz pairing is endless cycling in our own zone. Plus/minus is not a great stat but this pairing fully deserves their minuses.
4) 90% of fans wouldn't know a good defense if it bit them in the butt. To be honest, some players think defense is "da fence" around their house. If I say regehr is far superior defensively to muzzin, then do you really have to quote me some fenwick?
5) wet dream defense because they are all either pretty skaters, or being protected on lower pairings/easy zone stats...or both. This season, pretty skaters are being paired with pretty skaters, some guys not protected as much...so not as much love from the statisticians. Sorry, great defensive awareness and being tough in front of your net will always have value on championship teams.
ToughD
Joined: 08.19.2013

Mar 19 @ 5:13 AM ET
not sure you can applaud regehr's play and say he passes the eye test without a bong hit in between...
- hiway39


Nope. You are wrong, that was about Muzz not Regehr.

I realize that the team's success since Regehr's return has lots to do with the team's play and not just one individual. But Regehr has some part in it...he's on the top pairing and the top pk unit afterall.

I guess it's a pick you poison. This season Regehr's improved his puck moving skills and Muzz's defense has eroded. So dDo you want a dman whose puck moving is less than average but defense is great, or a dman whose puck moving is great but defense is poor?